>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. " HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

AFTER THE ASSASSINATION OF CONSERVATIVE YOUTH ACTIVIST AND KEY TRUMP ALLY CHARLIE KIRK, I SPEAK TO MARTIN LUTHER KING III AND AN EXPERT ON POLITICAL VIOLENCE CYNTHIA IDRIS.

> >> THEN THE ANATOMY OF PAINTING.

CELEBRATED BRITISH ARTIST JENNY SAVILLE TELLS ME WHAT INSPIRES HER EXTRAORDINARY WORK.

AND HER BETTER LATE THAN NEVER BLOCKBUSTER LONDON EXPEDITION.

> >> PLUS, "BREAKNECK," CHINA'S QUEST TO ENGINEER THE FUTURE.

AUTHOR DAN WANG TELLS WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS BEST- SELLING BOOK, AND HOW THE U. S. CAN KEEP UP WITH ITS GREATEST COMPETITOR.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. " IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

AMERICA IS REELING AND THE WORLD IS SHOCKED AFTER CONSERVATIVE YOUTH ACTIVIST CHARLIE KIRK WAS ASSASSINATED.

THE RIGHT-WING INFLUENCER WAS FATALLY SHOT ON WEDNESDAY DURING AN OUTDOOR APPEARANCE AT UTAH VALLEY UNIVERSITY.

KIRK WAS A LONG-TIME TRUMP ALLY.

THE WHITE HOUSE HAS LOWERED ITS FLAGS TO HALF- STAFF, AND PRESIDENT TRUMP CALLS THIS A DARK MOMENT FOR AMERICA.

>> MY ADMINISTRATION WILL FIND EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE WHO CONTRIBUTED TO THIS ATROCITY AND TO OTHER POLITICAL VIOLENCE, INCLUDING THE ORGANIZATIONS THAT FUNDED AND SUPPORTED AS WELL AS THOSE WHO GO AFTER OUR JUDGES, LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS, AND EVERYONE ELSE.

>> ACTS OF VIOLENCE SUCH AS THESE ARE NOT ISOLATED OR UNIQUE TO ONE SIDE OF THE POLITICAL AISLE.

JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO IN MINNESOTA, TWO DEMOCRATIC STATE LAWMAKERS AND THEIR SPOUSES WERE TARGETED BY A GUNMAN.

TWO OF THEM, MELISSA AND MARK HORRETTMAN WERE KILLED IN THAT ATTACK.

IN 2022, THE HOUSE SPEAKER NEW HAMPSHIRE'S HOME WAS BROKEN INTO, AND HER HUSBAND WAS ATTACKED ALMOST FATALLY.

AND THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS FACED TWO ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS.

SO WITH TOXIC RHETORIC AND PARTISAN DIVISION ON THE RISE IN A COUNTRY AWASH WITH POWERFUL WEAPONS, WHAT CAN BE DONE TO REIN THIS IN?

MARTIN LUTHER KING III HAS EXPERIENCED THIS VIOLENCE FIRSTHAND AS THE SON OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER WHO WAS ASSASSINATED IN 1968, DR. KING.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM ATLANTA.

WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S A VERY, VERY HARD DAY, AND YOU HAVE DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH WHAT HAS HAPPENED TODAY.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME IS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT'S HAPPENED.

>> WELL, MY FIRST REACTION FROM MY WIFE AND I IS TO EXTEND OUR CONDOLENCES TO THE KIRK FAMILY, TO CHARLIE KIRK'S WIFE AND TWO YOUNG CHILDREN.

AS YOU STATED, I PERSONALLY UNDERSTAND BECAUSE I WAS SO YOUNG WHEN MY FATHER WAS KILLED.

AND THE REALITY, WE KNOW THIS, WE JUST HAVE NOT LEARNED HOW TO PRACTICE IT YET.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS WE AS A NATION HAVE TO ALWAYS REJECT RHETORIC AND VIOLENCE.

VIOLENCE IS NEVER THE ANSWER.

WE AS A NATION MUST GROW PAST WHAT IS GOING ON.

IT'S NUMBER ONE, IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE.

CERTAINLY IT'S BEYOND --IT'S MORALLY INCORRECT, BECAUSE WE CAN HAVE CIVIL DISAGREEMENTS AND DISCUSS, BUT ALL OF OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS AND ALL OF OUR LEADERSHIP MUST CALL US TO A HIGHER --TO OUR MUCH HIGHER ANGELS.

THIS IS SO TRAGIC THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED.

AND OTHER VIOLENCE THAT IS OCCURRING, SCHOOL SHOOTING AS WELL.

THAT IS CONSTANTLY OCCURRING.

THERE IS SOMETHING THAT WE ARE NOT ADDRESSING.

IT'S NOT JUST MENTAL HEALTH.

THAT MAY BE ONE OF THE ISSUES.

BUT THEY ARE SIGNIFICANT ISSUES.

YOU FIRST HAVE TO CREATE A CLIMATE.

I MEAN, MY DAD AND MOM TAUGHT US HOW TO DISAGREE WITHOUT BEING DISGROYBLG.

DISAGREEABLE.

AND WE MUST FIND A WAY TO TEACH THAT TO EVERYONE.

>> GOSH, IT SEEMS SO, SO FAR AWAY WITH ALL THE STATS AND WHAT WE SEE IN FRONT OF OUR OWN EYES WITH THIS KIND OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE RISING, WE'RE TOLD.

WE SEE IT, AND ALSO ABROAD, BUT CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE HEAR FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION EDITOR WHO HAS JUST WRITTEN "VIOLENCE IS THE ENEMY OF LIBERAL INSTITUTIONS. "

IN A FREE SOCIETY, PEOPLE WITH DIVERSE VIEWS SHOULD BE ABLE TO ARGUE THEIR POSITIONS WITHOUT FEAR OF VIOLENCE. "

AS YOU SAID YOURSELF, I THOUGHT ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT REACTIONS FROM A LEADER IN AMERICA WAS FROM GEORGE W. BUSH, WHO ESSENTIALLY WROTE, AGAIN, THAT, TODAY THIS YOUNG MAN WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD FOR EXPRESSING HIS POLITICAL VIEWS.

IT HAPPENED ON A CAMPUS.

BUT HE GOES ON TO SAY, "MEMBERS OF OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES ARE NOT OUR ENEMIES.

THEY ARE OUR FELLOW CITIZENS.

HE SAYS MAY GOD BLESS CHARLIE KIRK AND HIS FAMILY, AND MAY GOD GUIDE TOWARD CIVILITY. "

SO THERE ARE THREE POINTS THERE THAT I WONDER WHETHER CAN HAPPEN.

CAN AMERICA BE GUIDED TO CIVILITY AND MUCH OF THE WORLD AS WELL?

CAN POLITICAL PARTIES, YOU KNOW, JUST BE --JUST HAVE POLITICAL DIFFERENCES INSTEAD OF TREATING THE OPPOSITE NUMBERS AS ENEMIES, AS SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

>> WELL, THE QUESTION OF CAN IS CERTAINLY ABSOLUTELY I WOULD SAY.

THE REAL QUESTION IS WE HAVE THE ABILITY, BUT DO WE HAVE THE WILL.

HOW DO YOU DIG DEEP INTO THE WILL TO ACTUALLY, NUMBER ONE, TREAT PEOPLE WITH CIVILITY.

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE.

THERE ARE MANY POSITIONS I DISAGREE WITH.

BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE SHOULD GO A FURTHER STEP AND TRY TO SILENCE SOMEONE.

THAT IS INSANE.

AND WE KEEP DOING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I REMEMBER IN 1968 THERE WERE --WHEN MY FATHER WAS KILLED, 100 CITIES ACROSS AMERICA WERE ACTUALLY WHERE RIOTING OCCURRED.

ONE CITY, THE MAJOR CITY THAT IT DIDN'T WAS INDIANAPOLIS.

AND WHY?

BECAUSE ROBERT KENNEDY MADE A PROFOUND STATEMENT TO ENCOURAGE THE COMMUNITY TO THINK ABOUT HOW THEY RESPOND TO THIS TRAGEDY OF DAD BEING KILLED.

AND THAT CITY DID NOT GO UP IN FLAMES.

SO MY POINT IS LEADERSHIP ON ALL SIDES MUST EXHIBIT A DIFFERENT KIND OF TONE THAN THE RHETORIC THAT WE CONTINUE TO EMBRACE.

MY DAD WOULD SAY, AND I'M --I STILL BELIEF THIS, NONVIOLENCE, WE MUST LEARN NONVIOLENCE OR WE MAY FACE NONEXISTENCE.

AND THAT --IT FEELS LIKE WE'RE CLOSE TO TRYING TO EMBRACE THE NONEXISTENCE.

WE'VE GOT TO DEMONSTRATE BETTER THAN WHAT WE ARE AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT.

>> AND AS YOU SAY, IT BEGS THE QUESTION OF LEADERSHIP AND THE WILL, THE POLITICAL WILL TO ENGAGE IN THIS KIND OF RESOLUTION, CONFLICT RESOLUTION AND DE-ESCALATION.

AT THIS POINT, I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF AN INTERVIEW I DID WITH CHARLIE KIRK YEARS AGO.

IT WAS IN 2018 BEFORE --BEFORE HE BECAME AS FAMOUS AS HE IS NOW, AS HE WAS.

HE SPOKE TO ME FROM CPAC, AND THAT WAS SHORTLY AFTER THE MASS KILLING OF STUDENTS IN FLORIDA AT THE Y STONEMAN DOUGLAS HIGH SCHOOL.

AT THE TIME, HE WAS WILLING TO ENTERTAIN SOME LIMITS OR CONTROLS ON GUN OWNERSHIP.

HIS VIEWS DID SHIFT IN LATER YEARS.

BUT EVEN THEN HE WAS DOING WHAT HE IS KNOWN FOR AND WHAT HE WAS DOING ON THE UTAH CAMPUS, ENGAGING OPENLY IN DEBATE ON CONTENTIOUS POLITICAL TOPICS.

SO HERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT CHARLIE KIRK TOLD ME BACK IN 2018.

>> LOOK, IT'S NOT AN EASY DISCUSSION.

IT'S A HIGHLY PERSONAL ISSUE.

AND FOR THOSE OF US THAT OWN WEAPONS AND THOSE OF US THAT TAKE THIS REALLY PERSONALLY YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS THIS FEAR THAT GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TAKE OUR GUNS AWAY.

THAT'S NOT GOING THE HAPPEN.

BUT IT'S A CONVERSATION WORTH HAVING, AND LOOK, IT TRANSCENDS POLITICS.

>> SO A CONVERSATION WORTH HAVING, MARTIN LUTHER KING, THAT TRANSCENDS POLITICS.

CAN WE, THOUGH, EVEN HAVE THOSE CONVERSATIONS NOW?

>> WELL, AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S A MATTER OF CAN.

IT'S MORE A MATTER OF WE MUST, BECAUSE IF WE REFUSE TO HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS AND THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR CONTINUES TO EXHIBIT ITSELF AND EXIST, AS I SAY, HUMANKIND WILL BE NO MORE.

AND WE HAVE LOST OUR HUMANITY OVER THESE LAST FEW YEARS.

IT FEELS TO ME.

AND I JUST BELIEVE IN THE EXISTENCE OF HUMANITY IN OUR NATION AND ON OUR PLANET.

AND YET IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE THAT EXISTS.

HOW DO WE --AND IT REALLY CREATING A CLIMATE.

I THINK THAT'S THE SPIRIT OF IT.

MY DAD WAS STABBED BACK IN THE LATE '50s.

AND HE CAME THE NEXT DAY AND DIDN'T SAY WELL, VIOLENCE GOES FOR VIOLENCE.

I MUST RESPOND IN WAY THAT'S DISRUPTIVE.

I'M GOING CONTINUE TO RESPOND IN A WAY OF CONSTRUCTIVE, BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER.

I THINK WE MUST CREATE A CLIMATE WHERE PEOPLE WANT TO WORK TOGETHER, EVEN IF THEY DON'T AGREE.

THERE IS SOMETHING THAT ALL OF US AS HUMAN BEINGS CAN AGREE ON, AND PROBABLY WE HAVE TO START AT THAT ONE ISSUE.

WHAT IS THE ONE ISSUE THAT AT LEAST THE MAJORITY OF US CAN AGREE ON.

AND THEN WE HAVE TO BUILD FROM THERE.

IT DOES NOT EVER MEAN WE'RE GOING TO AGREE ON ALL ISSUES.

WE'RE NOT A MONOLITHIC PEOPLE.

WE'RE NOT A MONOLITHIC NATION.

WE'RE NOT MONOLITHIC ETHNIC GROUPS.

THERE IS DIVERSITY IN EVERY ETHNIC GROUP.

AND WE MUST ELEVATE THAT AND CONTINUE TO DIALOGUE, CONTINUE TO DISCUSS.

WE CAN GET PAST THESE TIMES, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT AND EASILY.

BUT IT WILL --IT CAN HAPPEN IF OUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP, IF OUR RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP, IF OUR BUSINESS LEADERSHIP, ARE TO COLLECTIVELY JOIN AND SAY THIS IS THE WAY WE SHOULD RESOLVE CONFLICT.

THIS IS THE WAY THAT IS SUSTAINABLE.

BECAUSE IT REALLY IS ABOUT HOW DO WE SUSTAIN HUMAN BEINGS.

>> YOU KNOW, I HATE TO DO THIS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST A HORRIBLE TIME, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF, WHILE, YOU KNOW, ABHORRING WHAT HAPPENED TO HIS FRIEND AND ALLY, BLAMED IMMEDIATELY WHAT HE CALLED THE RADICAL LEFT AND, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY DOUBLING DOWN ON WHAT HE SAYS A LOT.

AND SURELY IT'S GOING TO TAKE LEADERS, ELECTED LEADERS FROM THE PRESIDENT ON DOWN TO DO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING NEEDS TO BE DONE.

FOR INSTANCE, GABBY GIFFORDS, WHO HERSELF WAS A VICTIM OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE I COVERED WHEN THAT HAPPENED TO HER.

SHE WAS SHOT VERY GRIEVOUSLY.

SHE JUST WROTE "BOTH PARTIES HAVE BEEN TARGETED AND BOTH PARTIES SHARE A MORAL AND PATRIOTIC DUTY TO TAKE MEANINGFUL ACTION TO STOP GUN CRIME FROM CLAIMING MORE LIVES. "

I KNOW THAT YOU AGREE WITH THAT.

BUT IS THERE A SPECIFIC PRESCRIPTION THAT AT LEAST YOU CAN IMAGINE AS A START TO THAT?

BECAUSE EVEN ON THE HOUSE FLOOR LAST NIGHT, SOME KIND OF CALL FOR A MOMENT OF TRIBUTE OR RESPECT WAS A SHOUTING MATCH.

>> WELL, IT'S REALLY UNTENABLE TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I OFTEN WONDER WHEN AN ELECTED OFFICIAL SAYS A STATEMENT, IS THAT SOMETHING HE OR SHE REALLY FEELS OR IS THAT SOMETHING THAT THEY THINK THEY'RE SAYING TO CONVEY AN ADVANTAGE?

I CANNOT SEE HOW CERTAIN LANGUAGE IS ADVANTAGEOUS.

THERE IS A WAY TO ACCOMPLISH YOUR GOALS AND OBJECTIVES WITHOUT DIMINISHING AND DENIGRATING OTHERS, EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THEM OR THEY DISAGREE WITH YOU.

AGAIN, THE EXAMPLE I HAD, ONE OF THE EXAMPLES I HAVE IS MY DAD AND MOM.

THEY SHOWED US OVER AND OVER AGAIN HOW WE CAN DISAGREE TO DISAGREE, BUT YET STILL MOVE THE BALL FORWARD.

AND IT IS ABOUT CREATING THAT CLIMATE.

AND IT'S NOT JUST ONE LEADER.

IT'S LEADERSHIP.

>> YEP.

>> AND, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY AGREE WITH GABBY GIFFORDS AND THE STATEMENT SHE MADE.

AND OTHERS HAVE, AND CERTAINLY THE STATEMENT THAT PRESIDENT BUSH MADE WAS QUITE POWERFUL.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS QUITE IMPORTANT.

AND I THINK THAT KIND OF TONE, THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE HAS TO COME FROM ALL OF US.

>> CAN YOU JUST REMIND US AGAIN, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S SO INSTRUCTIVE OF THIS MOMENT, FOR YOU TO JUST ELABORATE WHEN YOUR FATHER, DR. KING, WAS ASSASSINATED IN 1968, YOU MENTIONED PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE ROBERT F. KENNEDY HAPPENED TO BE I THINK YOU SAID IN INDIANAPOLIS, AND HE CAME OUT -- >> INDIANAPOLIS.

>> AND HE CAME OUT AND PUT HIMSELF ON THE LINE BETWEEN ANGRY PEOPLE AND THE CHOICE TO TRY TO CALM THEM DOWN.

JUST REMIND US ALL OF THAT MOMENT OF LEADERSHIP.

>> YEAH.

SO THE NIGHT MY FATHER WAS KILLED, APRIL 4th OF 1968, ROBERT KENNEDY WAS CAMPAIGNING FOR THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE TO BECOME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT PARTICULAR GROUP OF FOLKS THAT HE WAS TALKING TO IN A CITY IN AMERICA WHERE AT THE SAME TIME OR SHORTLY AFTER IN OVER 100 UNITED STATES CITIES, RIOTING OCCURRED.

BUT ROBERT KENNEDY SET A TONE IN HIS MESSAGE OF WHAT WE MUST DO TO RETAIN AND SUSTAIN CIVILITY, LIFTING US TO OUR HIGHER ANGELS.

AND THAT IS THE KIND OF TONE WE NEED TODAY IN A REAL SENSE, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT OPERATING.

WE'RE OPERATING ON EMOTION.

WE'RE OPERATING ON ANXIETY.

WE'RE OPERATING ON A LOT OF THINGS THAT DO NOT ALWAYS YIELD THE BEST RESULTS.

WE MUST LOOK TO OUR HIGHER ANGELS, LOOK TO THE STARS, LOOK TO BECOME BETTER THAN WE EVER HAVE IF WE'RE GOING TO OVERCOME THESE POLITICALLY VIOLENT ACTIVITIES.

AND VIOLENCE JUST IN GENERAL.

VIOLENCE IS NEVER THE WAY.

I WAS AT YALE UNIVERSITY JUST A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, AND I WAS DEALING WITH THE TOPIC OF VIOLENCE WILL NEVER BE THE ANSWER.

AND I BELIEVE THAT.

>> YEAH.

>> BUT THAT CLIMATE HAS TO BE CREATED.

IT DOESN'T HAPPEN ON ITS OWN.

>> EXACTLY.

MARTIN LUTHER KING III, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WISDOM AND HISTORIC EXPERIENCE PERSONALLY AND FIRSTHAND.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AND OVERSEAS, FROM THE UK TO EUROPE AND JAPAN, THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS IN RECENT YEARS.

EXPERT CYNTHIA MILLER-IDRISS IS JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D. C. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

YOU'VE BEEN SEEING WHAT HAPPENED.

YOU'VE BEEN LISTENING AND WATCHING THE FALLOUT.

YOU JUST HEARD FROM SOMEBODY WHO REALLY KNOWS, YOU KNOW, WHAT THIS ALL MEANS AND WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THE KIRK FAMILY.

WHERE DO YOU SEE AN IMMEDIATE EFFORT TO TAMP THE FEAR AND THE ANGER AND MAYBE SOME KIND OF INITIAL LEADERSHIP COMING FROM NOW?

>> YEAH, WELL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME, CHRISTIANE.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE AS DR. KING'S SON JUST SAID.

WE'RE NOT EVEN AT THE WORST OF THE SORT OF HISTORICAL MOMENTS WHEN WE'VE SEEN THESE SORTS OF ESCALATIONS HAPPEN, WHEN THERE WERE 100 CITIES BURNING AFTER MARTIN LUTHER KING'S ASSASSINATION IN 1968.

AND THIS IS THE MOMENT TO SEE THE KIND OF DE-ESCALATION OF RHETORIC, THE CALLING OF PEOPLE TOGETHER AND TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT VIOLENCE IS NOT A SOLUTION TO POLITICAL DISAGREEMENT.

AND WE ARE SEEING SOME OF THAT COME.

A LOT OF THAT COME FROM ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM IN MEANINGFUL WAYS.

I'M NOT SEEING IT AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THOUGH, IN A KIND OF MORE YOUTH-ORIENTED POPULATION WHERE YOU'RE REALLY SEEING RHETORIC RAMPING UP BOTH CALLING FOR CIVIL WAR AND ALSO CELEBRATING THE ASSASSINATION.

>> IT'S GROTESQUE.

HONESTLY, IT IS GROTESQUE.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU, BECAUSE THERE ARE ACTUAL FACTS OF DATA, POLLS ON THIS ISSUE.

SO THEY'RE CONSISTENTLY SHOWING A RISING TENDENCY AMONG AMERICAN VOTERS TO SUPPORT THE USE OF FORCE AGAINST POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

A RECENT SURVEY BY THE CHICAGO PROJECT ON SECURITY AND THREATS, THAT'S THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, FINDS ABOUT 40% OF DEMOCRATS WOULD SUPPORT FORCEFULLY WE MOVING TRUMP FROM THE PRESIDENCY, AND 25% OF REPUBLICANS SUPPORT USING THE MILITARY TO STOP ANTI- TRUMP PROTESTS.

YOU KNOW, THIS IS A REALLY WORRYING TREND, AIDED AND ABETTED, AS YOU SAY, BY THE ANONYMITY AND THE EXPONENTIAL AMPLIFICATION OF SOCIAL MEDIA.

>> YEAH.

IT'S A REALLY WORRISOME TREND.

IT'S A TREND THAT'S BEEN IN PLAY FOR MANY YEARS NOW, RISING SUPPORT FOR POLITICAL VIOLENCE AND WILLINGNESS TO ENGAGE IN IT GROWING UP ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM, ALONG WITH, INEVITABLY, ALMOST, IS WHERE IT FEELS LIKE RISING ACTS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE, INCLUDING ASSASSINATIONS.

I'M REALLY STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT I WAS SITTING IN THIS SAME CHAIR ABOUT A YEAR AGO TALKING TO YOU ABOUT THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT ON PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SAID SOMETHING LIKE --IT WAS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE WE GOT TO POLITICAL ASSASSINATIONS.

THAT'S WHAT IT FELT A YEAR AGO.

AND HERE WE ARE, AND SINCE THEN WE'VE HAD SEVERAL ACT OR ASSASSINATIONS.

THE ATTEMPT ON GOVERNOR SHAPIRO'S HOME, THE MINNESOTA SHOOTINGS OF ELECTED OFFICIALS, AND NOW THIS.

SO IT'S A QUESTION OF WHETHER THE BOULDER IS SO QUICKLY ROLLING DOWN THE HILL NOW THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO OFFRAMP IT.

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT I THINK WE CAN STILL PREVENT FURTHER ESCALATIONS.

BUT IT'S A REALLY CRITICAL MOMENT TO STOP THAT TINDERBOX FROM EXPLODING.

>> AND IN MY LAST INTERVIEW WITH DR. KING'S SON, I PLAYED A LITTLE BIT OF AN INTERVIEW I'D DONE WITH CHARLIE KIRK AFTER A MASS KILLING AT THAT FLORIDA HIGH SCHOOL.

AND EVEN AT UTAH, JUST BEFORE HE DIED, AS HE WAS TALKING, HE WAS ENGAGING IN A DEBATE ON A PROVOCATIVE TOPIC, NO DOUBT, ABOUT GUN CONTROL.

THERE ARE VERY PERMISSIVE GUN LAWS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THIS CAMPUS WAS AN OPEN CARRIE CAMPUS.

IT ALLOWED PEOPLE TO CARRIE GUNS.

IS THIS THE MOMENT ALSO TO TALK THAN?

IS THAT THE ISSUE, OR IS IT A BIGGER ISSUE NOW?

ARE WE PAST GUN CONTROL AND ON TO SOMETHING EVEN MORE DIFFICULT?

>> WELL, GUN CONTROL IS ONE OF THE MOST INTRACTABLE ISSUES IN THE U. S. , AS YOU KNOW.

IT'S INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO SEE THAT THE GUN LAWS THAT WE HAVE DO NOT REFLECT THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS' DESIRES FOR SAFER COMMUNITIES OR FOR STRICTER GUN CONTROLS.

WE'RE IN A SITUATION WHERE IT SEEMS INTRACTABLE.

IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE, AND I THINK WE ALSO SEE THAT EVEN IN THIS CASE, MORE GUNS, MORE SECURITY DOESN'T MAKE US SAFER IN EVERY CASE.

SO HE HAD A PRIVATE SECURITY TEAM.

HE HAD LAW ENFORCEMENT LOCALLY.

HE HAD CAMPUS SECURITY.

AND THERE HAS TO BE AN ADDITIONAL WAY FOR US NOT JUST TO KIND OF BARRICADE AND ARM OUR WAYS INTO SAFER COMMUNITIES, BUT ALSO INVEST IN PREVENTION SO THAT PEOPLE KNOW WHERE TO REPORT WARNING SIGNS.

MOST MASS SHOOTERS LEAK THEIR INTENTIONS AT SOME POINT.

WE DON'T KNOW IF THIS PERSON DID, BUT MOST DO, AND A LOT OF TIMES COMMUNITIES DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GO WITH THAT INFORMATION, HOW TO REPORT IT.

OR WE DON'T HAVE THE STRUCTURES IN PLACE.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE CHANGEABLE.

YOU JUST NEED THE POLITICAL WILL AND THE RESOURCES TO DO IT.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT THE FUEL?

POLITICAL WILL IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

WHAT ABOUT THE FUEL AND THE FUEL OF LET'S SAY THESE CULTURE WARS.

EVEN NEWT GINGRICH, THE FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER HIMSELF NO STRANGER TO POLITICAL POLARIZATION, HE'S SAID TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT THERE OBVIOUSLY BEING A CULTURE WAR UNDER WAY, AND THERE ARE, QUOTE, PROFOUND DIFFERENCES ABOUT THE VERY BASICS OF LIFE BETWEEN THE RIGHT AND THE LEFT.

THAT HAS TO BE PART OF THIS, RIGHT?

>> IT'S ABSOLUTELY PART OF THAT.

IN A WAY, IT'S THE MOTIVATION FOR SO MANY OF THE RECENT ATTACKS THAT WE'VE SEEN ARE REALLY ATTACKS ROOTED IN CULTURE WARS BECAUSE WE'VE COME TO A PLACE WHERE THERE IS SO MUCH OF A DEEP BELIEF IN AN US VERSUS THEMMENTALITY THAT POSITIONS THE OTHER AS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT TO MY OWN COMMUNITY'S WELL-BEING, SAFETY, SECURITY, AND FUTURE.

AND ONCE YOU GET TO THAT POINT WHERE PEOPLE BELIEVE THERE IS AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT, IT'S A SHORT LEAP TO ACTUALLY USING VIOLENCE.

SO WE SEE COLLEGE STUDENTS INCREASINGLY WERE HEARING THINGS LIKE THERE IS NO POLITICAL SOLUTION, WHETHER IT'S ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE OR IMMIGRATION, ON BOTH SIDES.

THAT'S A CALL TO VIOLENCE AS A SOLUTION.

THAT HAS TO BE -- WE HAVE TO INTERVENE IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU HEAR THAT KIND OF THING ACROSS THE DINNER TABLE OR ON THE SOCCER TEAM, RIGHT.

THERE HAVE TO BE WAYS TO INTERVENE IN INTERPERSONAL WAYS AND TRAINING FOR TEACHERS, FOR PARENTS, FOR CAREGIVERS TO KNOW HOW TO DO THAT, BECAUSE WE'RE NOT GOING TO SAVE OURSELVES HERE WITH JUST BETTER SECURITY.

>> AND FINALLY, DO YOU THINK WHAT HAPPENED COULD HAVE AN EVEN WORSE CHILLING EFFECT?

IN OTHER WORDS, THE REACTION TO WHAT HAPPENED COULD CAUSE, YOU KNOW, A WHOLE LOAD OF CRACKDOWNS ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

I WAS QUITE TAKEN BY THE LAST BIT OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SOUND BITE THAT WE PLAYED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PROGRAM.

HE WENT ON THE SAY THAT WE WILL TRACK THESE PEOPLE DOWN.

BUT ALSO THOSE WHO CRITICIZE OUR JUDGES AND WHO DO THIS, THAT, AND THE OTHER.

DO YOU THINK THIS --THIS --WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

>> WELL, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY THE RISK OF SUPPRESSION OF MORE ANTI-DEMOCRATIC ACTIONS HAPPENING AS A REACTION TO THIS TO RESTRICTIONS ON FREEDOMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE.

WE'VE SEEN THAT ALREADY IN THE CALL TO PREVENT TRANSGENDER PEOPLE FROM HAVING GUNS.

RIGHT.

REMOVING FROM A PREVIOUS ATTACK IN MINNESOTA.

SO THAT KIND OF RHETORIC THAT REDUCES, THAT SUPPRESSES, THAT FURTHER BACKSLIDES OUR DEMOCRATIC FREEDOMS IS A RISK HERE, AND I THINK WE HAVE TO BE ALERT TO THAT AND FIGHT BACK AGAINST THAT WITH WORDS, NOT WITH VIOLENCE.

AND I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO LOOK AT THE KIND OF THROUGH-LINES HERE FOR MOTIVATING FACTORS LIKE GENDER, AS I OFTEN TALK ABOUT HOW WE ARE REALLY CULTIVATING SUCH RESISTANCE TO AN ANGER AROUND BOTH REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, TRANSGENDER RIGHTS, AND, YOU KNOW, AND FEMINISM.

THOSE ARE MANY OF THE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES THAT KIRK TALKED ABOUT THAT WE HAVE TO FIND WAYS TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THAT ARE NOT AMPLIFYING THAT US VERSUS THEM RHETORIC.

AND WE'RE REALLY STRUGGLING TO DO THAT RIGHT NOW IN WAYS THAT SHOW DIALOGUE.

>> YEP, TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE POLITICAL DIFFERENCES, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN TO SAY THAT THERE SHOULD BE ENMITY TO THIS EXTENT FOR SURE.

>> EXACTLY.

>> CYNTHIA MILLER-IDRISS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

> >> NOW, OUR NEXT GUEST IS ONE OF BRITAIN'S MOST CELEBRATED CONTEMPORARY ARTISTS WORKING TODAY.

JENNY SAVILLE IS BEST KNOWN FOR HER LARGE SCALE OIL PAINTINGS OF NUDE WOMEN.

SHE HAS AN UNMISTAKABLE STYLE WITH INTIMATE WORK THAT EXPOSES HER SUBJECTS IN EXTRAORDINARY WAYS.

HER RECENT EXHIBITION AT LONDON'S NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY HAS BEEN HAILED BY CRITICS.

"THE ANATOMY OF PAINTING" WAS HER FIRST MAJOR MUSEUM EXHIBITION HERE IN HER HOME COUNTRY.

AND SOON IT WILL BE AT THE MODERN ART MUSEUM IN FORT WORTH, TEXAS.

SHE IS JOINING ME NOW IN THE STUDIO.

WELCOME TO THE STUDIO.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE TO START.

IT WAS A REMARKABLE, REMARKABLE EXHIBITION.

IT TOOK OVER THE WHOLE OF THAT FLOOR, THE GROUND FLOOR I THINK OF THE NATIONAL PORTRAIT GALLERY.

>> RIGHT.

>> I'M SURPRISED THAT IT WAS FIRST MAJOR GALLERY EXHIBITION FOR YOU, OR HAVE I GOT THAT WRONG?

I MEAN HERE IN THE UK.

>> I'VE DONE ANOTHER ONE IN SCOTLAND.

NOT AS MANY PAINTINGS OR AS COMPREHENSIVE.

BUT THIS IS MY FIRST SORT OF WHAT YOU CALL A RETROSPECTIVE.

>> I READ IN SOME OF THE RESEARCH THAT A VERY FAMOUS CRITIC WAS STUNNED BY THE EXHIBITION, AND AT ONE POINT SAID "I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WOMEN COULD BE PAINTERS. "

DO YOU KNOW WHO I MEAN?

ANY WAY -- >> NO.

>> DAVID.

DID YOU FIND -- >> HOPEFULLY THAT'S CHANGED NOW.

>> HE'S AMAZED BY THIS CURRENT EXHIBITION.

WAS IT DIFFICULT AS A WOMAN, DO YOU THINK?

>> COMING UP THROUGH THE ART WORLD?

>> YES.

>> THERE WERE NOT AS MANY WOMEN WHEN I FIRST STARTED SHOWING.

BUT NOW THE ART WORLD IS FULL OF WOMEN IN EVERY AREA OF THE ART WORLD, FROM COLLECTORS TO PAINTERS TO SCULPTORS, PEOPLE WORKING IN MUSEUMS.

SO I DON'T --DEFINITELY AN IMPROVED SCENARIO.

>> SO LET'S ASK ABOUT A FEW OF THEM.

WE HAVE SOME SLIDES THAT HAVE BEEN PROVIDED, AND ONE OF THEM IS "REVERSE. "

TELL ME ABOUT "REVERSE. "

>> IT'S ONE OF MY ICONIC WORKS, I GUESS.

I MADE IT FOR A SHOW CALLED "MIGRANTS IN NEW YORK" IN 2003.

IT'S A SELF PORTRAIT, AND THAT PERIOD WAS MY SECOND SHOWING IN NEW YORK.

I HAD DONE A SHOW CALLED "TERRITORIES" AND THIS WAS THE ONE CALLED "MIGRANTS" AND IT WAS THE FIRST PIECE I FINISHED FOR THAT SHOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

AT THAT TIME, I REALLY LIKED MAKING HEADS THAT HAD A BOLDER TYPE SHAPE.

I PUT MY HEAD ON THE FLOOR WITH A MIRROR, AND IT'S GOT THREE EYES, A REFLECTED EYE.

AND I TRIED TO MAKE THE MOUTH VERY SENSUAL.

>> IT'S VERY, VERY - -WHEN YOU WALK UP TO IT AND YOU SEE IT, WE KNOW IT'S A PAINTING, BUT IT REALLY DOES FEEL LIKE LOOKING AT ANOTHER PERSON LIVE.

>> I'M GLAD YOU SAY THAT.

>> THE CONNECTION.

>> AND ALSO, THERE IS LITTLE BITS ACROSS THE PAINTING.

LIKE UP AT THE EAR, THERE IS THIS PART OF THE EAR HERE I MADE THIS LITTLE WHITE SHAPE THAT LOOKED LIKE A MOUNTAIN.

HOPEFULLY AS YOU TRAVERSE YOUR EYE AROUND THE PAINTING, THERE ARE MOMENTS THAT YOUR EYE GETS MORE CAUGHT IN.

I PAINT THE GUMS.

I REALLY REMEMBER GETTING THE LIGHT REFLECTED IN THE EYE AND THE SCALE OF THE EYEBALLS.

I'M FOND OF THAT PAINTING.

>> IT'S REALLY AMAZING.

AND ANOTHER ONE STRUCK ME.

I HOPE I'M GETTING THE PRONUNCIATION RIGHT.

AGAIN, IT'S A HEAD.

CHISAU.

TELL ME WHO THAT IS AND WHY YOU PICKED THAT PORTRAIT.

THAT A NAME?

THE SUBJECT'S NAME?

>> IT'S NOT.

OFTEN, I DON'T USE THE NAMES OF THE ACTUAL CITIZENS.

>> IT'S BEAUTIFUL.

>> PARTLY TO PROTECT THE ANONYMITY SO THEY CAN CHOOSE IF THEY WANT TO KIND OF BE KNOWN AS THE SITTER OR NOT.

AND SHE WAS AN ECOLOGY STUDENT, ACTUALLY, AN ECOLOGIST.

I LOVE MEETING HER AND THE LOOK SHE HAD IN HER EYE.

SHE HAD BEAUTIFUL EYES AND SENSUAL LIPS.

SO IT'S ONE OF THE PAINTINGS I REALLY LOVED TO MAKE.

>> ONE OF YOUR --I THINK I'M GOING TO GET THIS RIGHT, BUT COLLEAGUE IN THE ART WORLD WHO WORKS CLOSELY WITH YOU, GOGOZIAN, WAS TELLING ME IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO PAINT THOSE MASSIVE SCALES THAT YOU DO.

I MEAN ALMOST LIKE A WORKOUT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

>> YOU HAVE TO GET INTO TRAINING?

>> NO.

I WAS LUCKY THAT I WAS KIND OF ALWAYS BEEN REASONABLY FIT.

THE SCALE IS -- PEOPLE TALK TO ME ABOUT THE SCALE, PROBABLY BECAUSE I'M QUITE SMALL IN SCALE.

I'VE NEVER REALLY FELL IT'S SOMETHING I COULDN'T MANAGE.

I LIKE WORKING ON A LARGE SCALE.

IT GIVES ME THE POSSIBILITY TO PLAY WITH PAINT A LOT.

AND IT'S JUST A NATURAL SCALE THAT I'VE WORKED IN.

>> YOUR TRAINING WAS MOSTLY AT GLASGOW UNIVERSITY, YES?

>> YES.

>> AND YOU EMERGED FROM THERE ALREADY HAVING TAKEN THE ART WORLD BY STORM, AT LEAST ART GALLERIES LIKE PEOPLE LIKE CHARLES SAACHI, WHO REALLY SORT OF --DID HE GIVE YOU YOUR FIRST BIG PUSH?

>> AT MY GRADUATION SHOW HAD A COUPLE OF PAINTINGS THAT ARE STILL KIND OF KEPT A KIND OF --THEY'RE SORT OF KNOWN WORKS WHICH CHARLES SAACHI DID END UP PURCHASING AND THEN COMMISSIONING A BODY OF WORK.

I'VE JUST HAD A RUN OF VERY FORTUNATE --IT WAS A FORTUNATE PLATFORM THAT I HAD.

CERTAIN THINGS CAME TOGETHER IN MY GRADUATION SHOW, AND I PUT ON WHAT WAS A REASONABLY MATURE GROUP OF PAINTINGS, I THINK.

AND THEN I GOT A COMMISSION ON WORKS TOWARDS THE SAACHI AND THEN MY DEALER IN NEW YORK.

>> BARRY.

>> YES.

>> I DID A FEW SHOWS IN NEW YORK.

I LOVED SHOWING IN NEW YORK.

IT WAS SUCH A GREAT MOMENT TO GO FROM SHOWING WITH CHARLES IN THIS BEAUTIFUL SPACE IN BOUNDARY ROAD AND MAKING THAT BODY OF WORK TO MAKING A BODY OF PAINTINGS IN NEW YORK.

>> AND THE NEXT EXHIBIT, THIS IS MOVING TO TEXAS TO THE FORT WORTH TATE GALLERY THERE, RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

IT'S NOT TATE.

IT'S CALLED FORT WORTH MODERN.

>> MODERN.

>> IT'S A BEAUTIFUL BUILDING.

>> YEAH, I'VE BEEN TO SOME OF THE MUSEUMS THERE.

IT'S INCREDIBLE WHAT THEY HAVE.

IT'S A GREAT ART-LOVING COMMUNITY.

UNBELIEVABLE PHILANTHROPY AROUND THE ARTS.

IT IS YOUR GOING THERE TO MOMENT WHEN MUSEUMS ARE SOMEWHAT UNDER STRESS, IF I COULD PUT IT THAT WAY FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHEN THERE IS JUST A WHOLE SORT OF CULTURE WAR GOING ON ABOUT EVERYTHING IN THE U. S. HOW DO YOU THINK YOU'LL BE RECEIVED?

DOES THAT CONCERN YOU AT ALL?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

MY PAINTINGS ARE MY PAINTINGS.

>> ARE YOU GOING THERE AS WELL?

YOU'LL BE THERE?

>> YEAH.

>> DO YOU GO THERE WITH ANY TREPIDATION?

>> NOT REALLY.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THE LANDSCAPE IN THE WORLD CHANGES EVERY DAY AT THE MOMENT.

THINGS ARE DIFFICULT EVERYWHERE.

IT'S AN EXHIBITION THAT'S BEEN IN THE PLANNING FOR A LONG TIME.

HOPEFULLY IT'S GOING TO BE FINE.

>> HOPEFULLY IT WILL BE FINE.

IT'S AMAZING.

SO YOU --I HAVE READ SOME --YOU TAKE SOME INSPIRATION FROM OLD MASTER, REMBRANDT.

>> YES, A LOT.

>> TELL ME ABOUT REMBRANDT AND HIS INFLUENCE.

>> I LIKE EVERYTHING HE DID.

I LIKE HIS PEN AND INK DRAWINGS.

HIS ETCHES ARE INCREDIBLE.

ESPECIALLY HIS LATE SELF-PORTRAITS I FIND --HE BUILDS UP A SORT OF SURFACE THAT HAS A DEEP HUMANITY WITHIN IT.

I'VE ALWAYS LOOKED TO HIM.

A RANGE OF DIFFERENT PAINTERS.

AT CERTAIN PERIODS IN YOUR LIFE CERTAIN PAINTERS SORT OF RISE UP, MORE IMPORTANT THAN OTHERS OR THERE MIGHT BE EXHIBITIONS ON THOSE ARTISTS.

YOU CAN KIND OF SEE THINGS IN THERE THAT YOU THINK THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING WAY THAT THAT HAND WAS PAINTED OR USING STAINS IN A CERTAIN WAY, OR LIKE PAINTING WET ON WET.

THOSE TECHNIQUES YOU SORT OF DEVELOP, AND THEY RISE UP WHEN YOU SEE THEM.

>> AND YOU'VE REMAINED PRETTY FAITHFUL LIKE REMBRANDT TO OIL PAINTING?

>> I LOVE PAINTING IN OIL PAINT.

>> IS THAT UNUSUAL THESE DAYS OR NOT?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THERE IS --I SOMETIMES USE ACRYLIC.

I OFTEN START PAINTINGS WITH ACRYLIC.

BUT ACRYLIC DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME DEPTH.

THAT OIL PIGMENT HAS.

JUST FROM YEARS OF WORKING WITH IT, THE DEXTERITY I'VE GOT BUILT UP.

>> THIS IS AN AMAZING.

WHAT IS THAT ONE CALLED?

>> IT'S CALLED "ROSETTA".

>> "ROSETTA," OKAY.

WHEN I SAW THAT, THE EYE LOOKS BLIND.

>> SHE WAS BLIND MOLD, YEAH.

>> SHE WAS ACTUALLY A BLIND MODEL.

I DON'T KNOW.

IT'S A PAINTING THAT I'VE ALWAYS LOVED.

I LOVE MAKING IT.

I LOVE THE CREAMINESS OF THE WAY HER FLESH WAS.

I STILL WHENEVER I SEE IT, IT STILL HOLDS UP.

>> IT REALLY DOES.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

JUST TO SAY THE EXHIBITION IS NOT ALL NEW PAINTINGS.

>> NO.

>> OVER THE YEARS THAT YOU'VE DONE.

>> THE EARLIEST ONE IS 1992, AND THE LAST ONE IS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

>> SO YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, A PROFOUND INTEREST IN ANATOMY.

THERE ARE SOME PAINTINGS THAT WE CAN'T SHOW BECAUSE WE'RE ON TELEVISION IN THE UNITED STATES, ET CETERA.

>> SURE.

>> BUT ONE OF THEM IS A SELF PORTRAIT OF YOURSELF PROPPED UP ON A STOOL.

IT'S VERY FLESHY.

IT'S VERY ABUNDANT.

>> RIGHT.

>> IT SHOWS EVERYTHING.

>> AND SOME PEOPLE, MIGHT NOT LIKE THIS, TELL ME, OH, THAT'S HER LUCIAN FREUD PERIOD.

IT'S NONETHELESS VERY, VERY INTIMATE.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> THAT PAINTING?

>> AND WHETHER YOU AGREE -- >> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT I, YOU KNOW, WAS GROWING UP AS A PAINTER WHEN FREUD WAS A BIG PAINTER IN THE UK, ALONG WITH BACON AND THERE IS A GROUP OF A LONDON SCHOOL.

AND SO PAINTING THE BODY INEVITABLY LOOKED AT FREUD ANY WAY.

AND HE GAVE --HE DEFINITELY GAVE ME A ROOT.

LIKE I WAS IN THAT CONTEXT, IF YOU LIKE.

AND THEN YOU DEVELOP AND YOU SEE OTHER PAINTERS YOU LIKE, AND YOU DEVELOP YOUR OWN SKILLS.

AND YOU CURIOUSLY LEARN ABOUT DIFFERENT COLORS AND THE WAY THINGS --THE WAY IS CAN MANAGE PAINT AND MOVE IT AROUND.

AND SO MY WORK, HOPEFULLY I DEVELOPED MY OWN SORT OF IDENTITY OF PAINTING AFTER THAT.

>> I WISH WE COULD PUT THAT ONE UP BECAUSE IT IS -- IT'S ONE OF THE FIRST PAINTINGS WE SEE AS WE GO IN, AND IT'S REALLY VERY, VERY ARRESTING.

>> IT WAS ONE OF THE ONES THAT WAS IN MY GRADUATION SHOW.

>> OKAY.

>> FROM '92, YEAH.

I STILL THINK IT'S ONE OF MY MOST SUCCINCT PAINTINGS.

THAT COMPOSITION WORKS QUITE WELL.

IT STILL HAS A SORT OF POWER OVER THIS BODY SITTING ON A STOOL.

>> AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT YOUR FUTURE EXHIBIT.

I JUST WONDERED ABOUT DO YOU LIKE MANY ARTISTS AND OTHERS EVEN US, WORRY ABOUT TECHNOLOGY, AI, OR IS IT SOMETHING THAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE A POSITIVE THING TO HARNESS IN YOUR SPECIFIC WORK?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK ARTISTS QUITE A GOOD JOB TO HAVE RELATIVE TO OTHER JOBS THAT AI MIGHT TAKE.

YOU COULD BE A PLUMBER OR YOU CAN BEEN AN ARTIST.

JOBS LIKE THAT SEEM TO BE OKAY.

MY LINE OF WORK SEEMS ALL RIGHT.

>> OKAY.

>> I THINK IT'S --YOU KNOW, IT'S REVOLUTIONARY.

IT'S GOING TO CHANGE THE WORLD, ISN'T IT?

IT'S GOING TO BE FOR GOOD AND BAD.

>> YEAH.

>> WE JUST DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW.

>> WELL, WE KNOW THAT THIS WAS A WONDERFUL EXHIBITION.

CONGRATULATIONS.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> NEXT, THE U. S. -CHINA RIVALRY.

WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP PUSHES TRADITIONAL ALLIES AWAY AND CUTS CRUCIAL TECH AND SCIENCE FUNDING TO AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES, CHINA IS POISED TO MAKE HAY, EVEN PERHAPS TAKE OVER AMERICA'S SUPERPOWER STATUS ONE DAY.

BUT OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES THERE IS A WAY TO STOP THAT IT'S ALL IN HIS NEW BOOK, "BREAKNECK: CHINA'S QUEST TO ENGINEER THE FUTURE. "

CHINESE ANALYST DAN WANG JOINS US TO DISCUSS HIS FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING BEIJING.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND DAN WANG, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> I WAS READING YOUR BOOK "BREAKNECK" LAST NIGHT, AND THERE IS A SENTENCE AT THE VERY BEGINNING THAT SETS UP THE THEME.

LET ME READ TO IT YOU.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CONTRAST BETWEEN AMERICA AND CHINA.

YOU SAY, "THERE IS AN AMERICAN ELITE MADE UP MOSTLY OF LAWYERS EXCELLING AT OBSTRUCTION VERSUS A CHINESE TECHNOCRAT TICK CLASS MADE UP MOSTLY OF ENGINEERS THAT EXCELS AS CONSTRUCTION. "

TELL ME HOW THAT SETS UP YOUR BOOK AND WHAT YOU'RE ARGUING.

>> WALTER, THE CENTRAL IDEA OF MY BOOK IS CHINA IS A COUNTRY THAT I CALL AN ENGINEERING STATE BECAUSE AT VARIOUS POINTS, THE ENTIRETY OF THE MOST SENIOR MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY HAVE HAD DEGREES IN ENGINEERING.

WHAT DO ENGINEERS LIKE TO DO?

WELL, BUILD A LOT OF STUFF, WHETHER THAT IS ROADS OR BRIDGES OR HYPER SCALERS OR COAL PLANTS, WHATEVER IT IS, HOMES ESPECIALLY, CHINA IS ALWAYS TRYING TO BUILD ANOTHER BIG PROJECT.

THE UNFORTUNATE FACT OF CHINA IS THAT THEY'RE NOT ONLY PHYSICAL ENGINEERS, THEY'RE ALSO SOCIAL ENGINEERS.

SO THEY OFTEN TREAT SOCIETY AS IF THEY WERE JUST ANOTHER BUILDING MATERIAL TO BE REMOLD AND TORN DOWN AS THEY WISH.

I CONTRAST THAT WITH THE UNITED STATES WHICH I CALL THE LAWYERLY SOCIETY, PARTLY BECAUSE SO MANY PRESIDENTS HAVE GONE TO LAW SCHOOL.

THERE ARE NOW 47 U. S. SENATORS WITH LAW DEGREES.

ONLY ONE HAS STUDIED ANYTHING IN S. T. E. M. AND THE ISSUE WITH LAWYERS IS THEY'RE REALLY GOOD AT SAYING NO RATHER THAN BUILDING STUFF.

SO WE DON'T HAVE REALLY TERRIBLE IDEAS, LIKE THE ONE-CHILD POLICY IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT WE ALSO DON'T HAVE FUNCTIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE, I WOULD SAY ALMOST ANYWHERE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE ONE- CHILD POLICY IN CHINA.

THAT WAS A SOCIAL ENGINEERING THING.

WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THEY CAN BUILD HIGH-SPEED RAIL REALLY GREAT, BUT THEN WHEN THEY START DOING SOCIAL ENGINEERING LIKE ONE CHILD POLICY, THAT MESSES UP.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

I THINK THE UNFORTUNATE FACTOR IN CHINA IS THEY CANNOT RESTRAIN THEMSELVES FROM BEING ONLY PHYSICAL ENGINEERS.

I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, PHYSICAL ENGINEERING, THOUGH IT HAS A LOT OF COSTS, IS PRETTY GOOD.

I THINK IT IS PRETTY GOOD TO HAVE AN EXPANDING HIGH-SPEED RAIL NETWORK, EXPANDING SUBWAY SYSTEMS, MORE HOMES THAN PEOPLE CAN BUY, SUCH THAT THEY HAVE FALLING HOME PRICES NOW.

AND I THINK THERE IS PLENTY OF PROBLEMS AROUND THAT.

THERE IS PLENTY OF PROBLEMS AROUND DEMOGRAPHICS.

SOMETIMES THERE IS HUMAN DISPLACEMENT INVOLVED, ESPECIALLY IF THEY BUILD A REALLY BIG DAM.

BUT I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, THAT IS GOOD.

THE UNFORTUNATE THING IS THAT SOMETIMES THEY TREAT MANY OF THEIR ETHNORELIGIOUS MINORITIES LIKE THE FOLKS LIVING IN TIBET OR IN XINJIANG AS JUST ANOTHER BUILDING MATERIAL.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING ABOUT THE ONE CHILD POLICY AS WELL AS ZERO COVID, WHICH I LIVED THROUGH DURING ITS ENTIRETY IN CHINA IN WHICH THE NUMBER IS RIGHT THERE IN THE NAME THERE.

IS VERY LITTLE AMBIGUITY ABOUT WHAT THESE POLICIES COULD POSSIBLY MEAN.

>> IS THERE SOMETHING CONNECTED TO THAT, THOUGH?

IN OTHER WORDS, COULD YOU HAVE THE GREAT ENGINEERING SKILLS WITHOUT IT SLOPPING OVER INTO MESSY SOCIAL ENGINEERING?

>> I WANT TO GET TO A PLACE MUCH MORE LIKE THE EUROPEANS, WHERE THE EUROPEANS, PERHAPS THE JAPANESE HAVE ENDED UP IN.

IN EUROPE, IN LET'S SAY PARIS, IN PARSE LONA AND ROME, ACCORDING TO THE SUBWAY COSTS THAT WE HAVE SEEN ACCORDING TO THE TRANSIT DATA THAT'S MOSTLY COMPILED BY NEW YORK UNIVERSITY, WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THESE CITIES ARE ABLE TO BUILD NEW INFRASTRUCTURE SYSTEMS, NEW SUBWAY SYSTEMS AT ABOUT 1/8 OR 1/9 THE COST LEVELS OF NEW YORK CITY.

AND IF I'M THINKING ABOUT THE POPULATIONS IN BARCELONA AND MADRID AND ROME AND PARIS, THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE REALLY DEEPLY DISTRESSED BY ALL OF THESE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS THAT WERE INVOLVED IN BUILDING THEIR SUBWAYS.

SO I THINK THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH THE EUROPEANS AND THE JAPANESE HAVE GOT IT RIGHT.

THEY HAVE THE HIGH-SPEED RAIL SYSTEMS.

THEY HAVE MASS TRANSIT SYSTEMS.

PERHAPS THEY DON'T HAVE QUITE ENOUGH HOUSING, BUT THEY'RE MUCH BETTER THAN NEW YORK AND CALIFORNIA ARE AT BUILDING.

AND WHAT I'D LIKE TO SAY IS LET'S GET TO EUROPEAN LEVELS.

WE DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING SOCIAL ENGINEERING, BUT LET'S HAVE MUCH MORE FUNCTIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S BADLY NEEDED IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YOU SAY WE DON'T HAVE TO DO ANY SOCIAL ENGINEERING, BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE A MIND-SET IN THE UNITED STATES THAT'S NOT JUST LAWYERLY, IT'S "NOT MY BAG YARD," STOPPING THINGS.

AND YOU MENTION HIGH-SPEED RAIL OFTEN.

YOU PUT IN YOUR BOOK, "IN 2008, THEY APPROVED A HIGH SPEED RAIL I THINK FROM LOS ANGELES TO SAN FRANCISCO.

THEY ALSO IN CHINA APPROVED IN 2008, ONE FROM BEIJING TO SHANGHAI.

TELL ME WHY IT IS THAT THE U. S. ONE COULD NEVER GET BUILT.

>> THE YEARS AFTER 2008, IN 2011, THE SHANGHAI BEIJING HIGH SPEED RAIL LINE STARTED OPERATING.

IT MOVES REALLY QUICKLY.

IT TRANSPORTS A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND OVER THE COURSE OF THE FIRST DECADE, ACCORDING TO CHINESE STATE MEDIA, THE HIGH-SPEED RAIL SYSTEM MOVED SOMETHING LIKE 1.

4 BILLION PASSENGER TRIPS OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT DECADE.

HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN ABLE TO RIDE ON THE CALIFORNIA HIGH- SPEED RAIL SYSTEM?

THAT ANSWER IS VERY SIMPLE.

IT IS ZERO BECAUSE ALMOST NONE OF IT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN BUILT.

THE FIRST SEGMENT THAT WOULD BE BUILT WOULD -- IS SUPPOSED TO OPEN ITS LINES IN SOMETHING BETWEEN 2030 TO 2033, CONNECTING THE TOWNS OF BAKERSFIELD AND MERCED, WHICH IS NOT REALLY CLOSE TO SAN FRANCISCO AND LOS ANGELES.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THESE QUITE DISAPPOINTING THINGS ABOUT THE UNITED STATES, THAT THE CALIFORNIA HIGH- SPEED RAIL HAS NOT BUILT ON TIME.

IT'S BASICALLY BUILT VERY LITTLE AT ALL.

AND YET PEOPLE AREN'T SUPER DISAPPOINTED.

PEOPLE AREN'T OUT ON THE STREETS SAYING WHAT'S GOING ON WITH OUR TAX DOLLARS RIGHT NOW.

THIS WHOLE SYSTEM IS SUPPOSED TO COST SOMETHING LIKE $128 BILLION.

AND SO THAT IS KIND OF A STRANGE THING TO ME.

>> LET'S GET AT THE REASON THEY ARE.

I MEAN, YOU SAY IT'S LAWYERS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, OUR FOUNDERS WERE LAWYERS.

MOST OF THE PEOPLE SIGNING THE DECLARATION.

WE USED TO BE ABLE TO BUILD THINGS.

WHAT'S GONE WRONG?

>> THE LAWYERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN PRESENT IN THE U. S. , BUT I THINK THE CHARACTER OF THE LAWYERS HAS CHANGED QUITE SUBSTANTIALLY, ESSENTIALLY IN THE LAST 50, 60 YEARS.

IN MY BOOK, I TRACE OUT THAT THE U. S. HAS A HERITAGE OF BEING AN ENGINEERING STATE.

THE U. S. CERTAINLY BUILT A LOT OF STUFF, MUCH AS THE CHINESE HAVE, BETWEEN AROUND THE 1850s TO AROUND THE 1950s, AMERICA BUILT THESE AWESOME INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, THINGS LIKE CANAL SYSTEMS, TRANSCONTINENTAL RAILROAD, SKYSCRAPERS IN MANHATTAN, AS WOMEN AS CHICAGO.

WE HAD THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

WE HAD THE APOLLO MISSIONS.

WE HAD THE INTRASTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM.

AND I THINK THAT'S IN PART BECAUSE THE TECHNOCRATIC ENGINEERING ELITES IN AMERICA SOMETIMES REPRESENTED BY THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX HAD BEEN IN POWER A LITTLE BIT MORE.

THERE IS ALSO THE CASE THAT THE LAWYERS WERE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT AS WELL.

IF WE TAKE A LOOK AT LAWYERS ABOUT 100 YEARS AGO, THEY WERE MUCH MORE OFTEN CREATIVE DEAL MAKERS.

SO WE HAD PEOPLE LIKE FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT WHO WAS KIND OF A WALL STREET LAWYER, WHO PACKED HIS CABINET IN THE NEW DEAL WITH OTHER LAWYERS.

AND THEY WERE VERY EFFECTIVE AND CREATIVE IN THINKING ABOUT THOU STRUCTURE NEW DEALS IN ORDER TO GET THINGS DONE.

SOMETHING REALLY SHIFTED IN THE 1960s AND THE 1970s WHEN PEOPLE HAD GOTTEN REALLY TIRED OF ALL OF THESE BIG ENGINEERING PROJECTS THAT THE U. S. HAD BEEN MANAGING, THINGS LIKE THE HIGH-SPEED RAIL SYSTEM IN WHICH URBAN PLANNERS LIKE ROBERT MOSES RAMMED THROUGH TOO MANY HIGHWAYS THROUGH NEW YORK CITY.

PEOPLE WERE REALLY EXHAUSTED BY THE WAR.

PEOPLE WERE REALLY EXHAUSTED BY DDT AND OTHER PESTICIDES.

AND THE LAWYERS THEMSELVES TURNED AWAY FROM DEAL MAKERS TO LITIGATORS.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE LIVING WITH THE REMNANTS OF.

LAWYERS THAT ARE MUCH MORE EAGER TO STOP THINGS RATHER THAN TO BUILD THINGS.

>> YOU WERE BORN IN YUNNAN PROVINCE I THINK IN SOUTHWEST CHINA.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG, YOU MOVED TO CANADA.

BUT THEN YOU MOVED BACK TO SHANGHAI DURING THE --AND HAPPENED TO BE THERE WHEN COVID STRUCK.

TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT BEING THERE DURING COVID.

>> I WAS IN CHINA FROM 2017 TO 2023, WHICH I EXPERIENCED THE FIRST TRADE WAR THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP LAUNCHED.

I SAW HOW THAT MORPHED INTO MUCH GREATER GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS BETWEEN THE U. S. AND CHINA.

MY CENTERPIECE FOR LIVING IN CHINA WAS EXPERIENCING THE ENTIRETY OF ZERO COVID FROM 2020 TO THE END OF 2022.

AND ZERO COVID STARTED OUT IN A KIND OF A POLITICAL DISASTER IN WHICH PEOPLE HAD GOTTEN REALLY UPSET THAT A RESPIRATORY VIRUS HAD BEEN SPILLING OUT OF WUHAN IN THE START OF 2020 IN WHICH PEOPLE WERE REMINDED THAT ONLY TWO DECADES BEFORE THE START OF COVID, THAT CHINA HAD A DIFFERENT RESPIRATORY VIRUS, NAMELY SARS IN 2003, IN WHICH THE GOVERNMENT SUPPRESSED A LOT OF NEWS AND THEN SUPPRESSED A LOT OF WHISTLE- BLOWERS, AND THEN THE VIRUS WAS ALLOWED TO SPREAD BECAUSE PEOPLE WEREN'T REALLY ALLOWED TO KNOW ABOUT IT.

PEOPLE HAD GOTTEN QUITE ANGRY.

BUT THEN THERE WAS THE NEXT STAGE OF COVID'S DEVELOPMENT IN WHICH CHINA IMPLEMENTED ALL OF THESE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION GUIDELINES TO REALLY TRY TO STOP THE TRANSMISSION OF THE VIRUS, SOMETIMES THROUGH FAIRLY COERCIVE MEANS.

BUT WHAT THAT DID ACHIEVE WAS A LEVEL OF TRANSMISSIONS THAT WAS ALMOST NONEXISTENT.

THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY MINUSCULE, AND THE ABILITY TO RESTART LIFE IN A PRETTY COMPELLING WAY.

AND THAT WORKED PRETTY WELL UP UNTIL THE SPRING OF 2022 WHEN WE HAD THE MUCH MORE TRANSMISSIBLE OMICRON VARIANT OF THE VIRUS IN WHICH THE CHINESE STATE TRIED TO USE THESE SAME METHODS TO TRY TO CONTAIN A MUCH MORE TRANSMISSIBLE VIRUS AND WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL.

SO WE HAD THE SHANGHAI LOCKDOWN WHICH TOOK PLACE IN THE SPRING OF 2022 IN WHICH I SAY THAT THE STATE ATTEMPTED PROBABLY THE MOST AMBITIOUS LOCKDOWN IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY IN WHICH CHINA'S LARGEST CITY, SHANGHAI, 25 MILLION PEOPLE WERE UNABLE TO LEAF THEIR APARTMENT COMPOUNDS OVER THE COURSE OF EIGHT, NINE, TEN WEEKS.

AND SO I THINK ONE OF THE MESSAGES I WANT TO CONVEY WITH THE ENGINEERING STATE IS THE LINE BETWEEN RATIONALITY AND IRRATIONALITY IS PRETTY THIN.

IT COULD LOOK LIKE CHINA IS ACHIEVING THESE SPECTACULAR SUCCESS UP UNTIL IT GOES TOO FAR AND HOLDS ON FOR TOO LONG, IN WHICH CASE IT VEERS INTO DISASTER.

SO THAT IS ONE OF THESE STRANGE PARADOXES THAT WE SEE WITH CHINA AND THE ENGINEERING STATE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DID WHEN YOU WERE BACK LIVING IN CHINA IS YOU TOOK A BICYCLE TRIP.

I THINK IT WAS THROUGH THE PROVINCE, AND YET YOU SAW A LOT OF THINGS I THINK INFORMED THE REST OF YOUR BOOK.

>> IT'S A VERY POOR PROVINCE.

IT'S FAR DEEP IN CHINA'S SOUTHWEST WHERE IT IS HIGHLY MOUNTAINNESS, AND A LOT OF DISEASES THAT AROSE FROM MALARIA.

IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE PROPS PROWESS COASTS OF CHINA WHICH ARE MUCH RICHER BECAUSE THEY'RE ABLE TO EXPORT A LOT OF GOODS.

BECAUSE WEIZO IS SO DISTANT, THIS IS CHINA'S FOURTH POOREST PROVINCE.

WHEN I TOOK THAT BICYCLE TRIP IN THE SUMMER OF 2021, I SAW ASTOUNDING LEVELS OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

THEY HAVE 11 AIRPORTS WITH MORE UNDER CONSTRUCTION.

THEY HAVE EXCELLENT INTEGRATION INTO THE HIGH SPEED RAIL NETWORK.

THEY ALSO HAVE 45 OF THE WORLD'S TALLEST BRIDGES.

NOT CHINA'S TALLEST BRIDGES, BUT THE WORLD'S TALLEST BRIDGES.

I WAS REALLY STRUCK WHEN I WAS TRAVELING THROUGH AMERICA'S EQUIVALENT OF LET'S SAY WEST VIRGINIA OR MAYBE SOUTH DAKOTA NOT THE MOST WEALTHY PLACES, THAT IT HAS MUCH BETTER LEVELS OF INFRASTRUCTURE THAN.

>> LET ME STOP RIGHT THERE.

HOW DID THEY AFFORD THAT?

ARE THEY TAKING ON TOO MUCH DEBT TO THAT?

>> THEY ARE TAKING A LOT OF DEBT TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT.

AND THEY'RE BARELY ABLE TO AFFORD THAT.

PERHAPS THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO AFFORD IT, BECAUSE WE CAN SEE THAT WEIXO IS ONE OF THE MOST INDEBTED PROVINCES IN CHINA.

A LOT OF THESE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ARE UNABLE TO PAY BACK THE INTEREST ON THEIR BONDS THAT THEY USED TO BUILD THESE BIG BRIDGES THAT ARE NOT TERRIBLY ECONOMICAL.

AND I THINK THAT IS DEFINITELY ONE OF THESE BIG PROBLEMS OF THE ENGINEERING STATE THAT THEY DON'T CARE ENOUGH ABOUT PROFITABILITY.

THEY PILE ON A LOT OF DEBT.

BUT WHEN I WAS CYCLING THROUGH AND CHATTING TO SOME OF THESE FOLKS WHO ARE LIVING IN THESE VILLAGES, FOR THE MOST PART THEY ARE REALLY PROUD OF EVERYTHING THAT THEY SEE AROUND THEM.

THAT PREVIOUSLY, IT TOOK THEM HOURS TO GET TO THEIR NEIGHBORING VILLAGE, BUT NOW WITH THIS NEW BRIDGE, IT TAKES THEM A MATTER OF MINUTES PERHAPS IN ORDER TO DRIVE ACROSS THIS BRIDGE.

THEY FEEL REALLY GOOD THAT THEY HAVE THE HIGH- SPEED RAIL LINES IN WHICH THEY'RE ABLE TO GO TO MUCH BIGGER CITIES LIKE SHANGHAI OR BEIJING, PERHAPS TO WORK.

AND SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK THE ENGINEERING STATE HAS BEEN REALLY GOOD AT, THAT A LOT OF WHAT IT BUILDS IS PERHAPS ECONOMICALLY QUESTIONABLE, BUT WHAT THAT HAS ALSO ACHIEVED IS A DEGREE OF POLITICAL RESILIENCE.

AND I THINK BUILDING A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE INSPIRES GENUINE PRIDE WITH A LOT OF CHINESE.

AND I THINK THAT GOES SOME LENGTH TO EXPLAINING WHY THE COMMUNIST PARTY HAS BEEN ROBUST AND HAS BEEN AS STABLE AS IT IS, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE REALLY HAPPY TO GET BETTER CITIES, BETTER PARKS, MORE SUBWAY LINES, BETTER INTEGRATION.

AND THEY ARE VERY GENUINELY PROUD OF THESE BIG MONUMENTAL PROJECTS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTION.

A LOT OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT INVOLVES AMERICA'S EMPHASIS ON INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, THE RIGHTS TO STOP THINGS, WHATEVER, THINGS YOU DO NOT SEE IN CHINESE SOCIETY, WHETHER IT'S A LOCKDOWN IN SHANGHAI OR DATA PRIVACY.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM A DETRIMENT TO AMERICA'S ABILITY TO BUILD THINGS?

AND TO WHAT EXTENT MIGHT IT ACTUALLY BE THE SECRET SAUCE THAT ALLOWS MORE INNOVATION IN AMERICA?

>> I THINK IT IS BOTH.

I THINK IT IS BOTH THE SECRET SAUCE AS WELL AS SOME EXTENT DETRIMENT.

NOW I WANT TO SAY THAT PART OF THE REASON THAT I MOVED OUT OF CHINA AT THE START OF 2023 WAS BECAUSE I MISSED SOME DEGREE OF INDIVIDUALISM, THAT I WANTED TO BE LEFT ALONE BY THE STATE AND NOT SUFFER THESE DRAMATIC CRACKDOWNS AND LOCKDOWNS THAT A LOT OF CHINESE HAVE BEEN EXPERIENCING.

I REALLY MISS THE PLURALISM THAT EXISTS IN THE U. S. I THINK I'LL SAY ONE NICE THING ABOUT THE LAWYERS IS THEY GUARANTEE EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO HAVE SOME SORT OF VOICE IN THE SYSTEM.

AND I MUCH APPRECIATED THAT OVER THE CHINESE SYSTEM IN WHICH THE OFFICIAL VOICE IS REALLY MEANT TO SPEAK ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE.

AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK THAT THERE ARE ISSUES THAT IN THE UNITED STATES, ESPECIALLY IN CALIFORNIA IN PARTICULAR, THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS IN WHICH A SINGLE HOMEOWNER, A SINGLE PROPERTY OWNER IS ABLE TO PUT UP HIS HAND, HIRE A PRETTY EXPENSIVE LAWYER AND CONVINCE A JUDGE NOT TO DO SOMETHING THAT MANY, MANY OTHER PEOPLE DESPERATELY NEED.

AND I THINK WHAT THE U. S. SYSTEM HAS IS THIS ENTRENCHED HOMEOWNER-BASED AND ENTRENCHED POLITICAL BASE THAT IS MUCH MORE INTERESTED IN PROTECTING THEIR OWN INTERESTS RATHER THAN BUILDING OUT MORE.

SO THAT MORE PEOPLE CAN SHARE THE GOODS.

AND A LOT OF WHAT I WANT TO DO IS TRY TO ENCOURAGE THE U. S. TO BE SLIGHTLY MORE ENGINEERING.

LET'S CALL IT 20% MORE ENGINEERING, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE NEED TO BUILD OUR HOMES AND BUILD OUR INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND I WISH THAT CHINA COULD BE 50% MORE LAWYERLY.

IT NEEDS A LOT MORE LAWYERS IN ORDER TO PROTECT INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS, IN ORDER TO PERMIT INDIVIDUAL FLOURISHING, ALLOW SOME DEGREE OF CREATIVE EXPRESSION.

AND I THINK THAT THE WORLD WOULD REALLY BE BETTER OFF IF THE U. S. COULD BUILD A LITTLE BIT MORE AGAIN AND IF THE CHINESE STATE COULD ACTUALLY RESPECT THE WILLS AND WISHES OF ITS OWN PEOPLE.

>> DO YOU SEE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN PRESIDENT XI OF CHINA AND PRESIDENT TRUMP OF THE UNITED STATES?

>> I CERTAINLY SEE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS LEARNING A LOT PRESIDENT XI.

IT IS VERY OFTEN THE CASE THAT TRUMP IS SAYING ALL SORTS OF NICE THINGS ABOUT HIS BUDDY XI JINPING.

I'VE HEARD HIM PRAISE XI'S GREAT HEAD OF HAIR.

I THINK THAT IS A REALLY REMARKABLE THING TO SAY ABOUT ANOTHER WORLD LEADER.

AND PART OF MY CONCERN IS THAT RATHER THAN LEARNING ALL OF THE GOOD THINGS THAT CHINA HAS BEEN DOING WELL, I WORRY THAT THE UNITED STATES IS LEARNING A LOT OF REALLY BAD THINGS.

I THINK THAT TRUMP IS LEARNING TO BE LIKE CHINA, TO BE VISITING A LOT OF MISFORTUNE ON THE DOWNTRODDEN, UPON SOME OF THE MOST UNFORTUNATE AMONG US THERE.

IS NOW MUCH GREATER QUESTIONS ABOUT DATA PROBITY, WHICH IS AN ISSUE AMONG THE STATISTICAL AGENCIES NOW IN BOTH THE U. S. AS WELL AS IN CHINA.

WHICH I THINK THE TOP LEADER DEMANDS A LOT OF FEALTY AND EVERY PROBLEM IS CAUSED BY EITHER FOREIGNERS OR TRAITORS.

AND I THINK THESE ARE ALL THINGS THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN LEARNING FROM XI.

AND I WOULD REALLY HOPE THAT TRUMP CAN LEARN SOME OF THE GOOD STUFF, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW I THINK IT FEELS TO ME LIKE WE HAVE AUTHORITARIANISM WITHOUT THE GOOD STUFF, THE GOOD STUFF OF FUNCTIONING CITIES, FUNCTIONING LOGISTICAL SYSTEMS, PUBLIC ORDER, AS WELL AS VERY EXTENSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE BUILD- OUTS THAT WE NEED VERY MUCH.

AND SO RATHER THAN LEARNING THE GOOD STUFF, I THINK IT'S UNFORTUNATE THAT TRUMP IS LEARNING MOSTLY THE BAD STUFF.

>> DAN WANG, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

>> AND TALKING OF AUTHORITARIAN STATES, GOOD STUFF, BAD STUFF, FINALLY TONIGHT, A FEMALE MOTORIST THE DRIVING FORCE TO CHANGE IN IRAN.

THAT'S PROBABLY A STRETCH.

MORE AND MORE WOMEN, THOUGH, ARE RIDING MOTOR BIKES, DESPITE BEING BARRED FROM GETTING A LICENSE.

WOMEN'S APPLICATIONS ARE FREQUENTLY DENIED BY AUTHORITIES CITING RELIGIOUS BASIS.

THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC INSISTS SUCH RIDES VIOLATE ITS CODES OF MODEST CITY, BUT MANY WOMEN CONTINUE TO DEFY THEM.

AS A THIRD ANNIVERSARY OF MAHSA AMINI'S DEATH APPROACHES, SHE DIED AT THE HANS OF MORALITY POLICE WHO CLAIMED SHE WAS NOT COVERING HER HEAD PROPERLY.

BUT SUPPORTERS SHOW THE WOMEN LIFE FREEDOM WILL NOT DIE.

THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.

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ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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